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This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute an advertisement. Views expressed are those of the individuals and not necessarily the views of Thoma Bravo or it's affiliates. Thoma Bravo funds generally hold interest in the companies discussed. This podcast should not be construed as an offer to solicit the purchase of any interest in any Thoma Bravo fund.
If things were a straight line and always pretty steady, it would be so boring. We're here to solve challenges and get creative. Remember, every business problem can be solved and health is another matter. Because companies are run by people and humans that have issues and things happen in their families and their lives. As long as you have willing partners, it can just be fixed. We just need to know about it. We just need the time. Maybe, it needs more capital. We can make that decision and away we go.
Welcome to Thoma Bravo's Behind the Deal. I'm ALMEIDA, a partner at Thoma Bravo. And today, we're doing things a little different. Throughout this season, you've heard stories about how some of our most dynamic deals have come together and how we at Thoma Bravo have built a portfolio of innovative, industry leading software and technology companies. But on this, our final episode of the season, I have the distinct pleasure of speaking with our founder, Orlando Bravo. Now, I've been working with Orlando for almost 12 years now and I'll never forget the moment when we first met. I was three months into my first year as an associate and I went into our kitchen on the 32nd floor of the Transamerica Pyramid and we had this giant jar of peanut butter stuffed pretzel bites.
And I, I reached in and I grabbed a, a big handful of these funny looking pretzels. And I was walking out and Orlando walked right in and we've never seen each other before. And I remember thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm meeting Orlando for the first time with this giant handful of peanut butter stuffed pretzels. I hope he doesn't think I work here 'cause I just look so ridiculous. But I made it past the great pretzel incident of 2012 and 12 years later, here we are. There's so much for us to get into today, so let's just dive right in. Here is my conversation with Orlando.
Orlando, how are you doing?
Thank you, Andrew. I'm doing awesome. How are you?
I am doing great. I'm so excited to be able to host this podcast today. I said, "You know what? Orlando does a ton of interviews. MSNBC, CNBC, Bloomberg TV." I said, "Let's make this an interview like he's never done before. So let's ask him questions that he doesn't get typically asked." But what I also learned is we have so many first timers to Thoma Bravo on this podcast, people that might not know about you or might not know about Thoma Bravo or software or private equity. So would you mind starting off and just giving us a little bit of background on yourself, who you are, why Thoma Bravo has done so well, what our philosophy is and why software's the best place to be?
I would love you. And, Andrew, thanks for having me. I am from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. I grew up in a small town. Through tennis and a bunch of luck, I ended up like many of our associates at Thoma Bravo, in investment banking in New York, many, many, many years ago. And that kind of gave me an introduction to the world of Wall Street, investing and then a bit of tech. And now, I have been at Thoma Bravo and our predecessor firm since 1997. I can tell you this, I love my job multiples more now than I ever have. I like it more every year than the prior. And that is because of what we're doing in the world of private equity and in the world of technology. We at Thoma Bravo have a special mission and that is to turn these great innovators into phenomenal businesses. The way we operate these companies is completely unique. And other people do a great job as well, but the way we do it, I firmly believe that nobody does that better. And the way we engage with people, and the way we build our firm.
So that leads us to where we are today because of what we've done in the past and what we're gonna do in the future, we now have that great acclaim that we're the largest technology buyout firm in the world. And I promise you, we're only getting started. And throughout our long history, we've now bought over 400 software companies with a total value of over $200 billion and this keeps growing. We do something very special which is our team is extremely good at asset selection, at selecting the best businesses and the best people to partner with. And then we have a second important core competency, which is our team is excellent at the values and principles of running these companies. And that's what we do.
So, you know, you mentioned how you got started. One of my favorite things about talking about you is hearing about your mentors. In particular, hearing stories about Carl Thoma of Thoma Bravo, a fellow managing partner, as well as Marcel Bernard, one of our senior operating partners. And Marcel was the chairman of a number of our companies, sat on so many boards and really helped us define what operational excellence is today. But in addition to just being great people, great investors, great operators, they're also very funny. Do you have any favorite anecdotes, any favorite lines from Carl or Marcel that we could share?
I'm gonna start with Carl. Carl's a legend and he is so funny. The way he's funny is he can summarize something really complicated or a problem or have you think about a solution and he can summarize that in one sentence, sometimes one word. I'll tell you a couple. And some of them relate to business and they were kind of scary. One time in 1999, the dot-com bubble bursts. I had made some investments that were all going to zero. And I came over to him, he was in the San Francisco office that day, and I went over to him saying that this company that we had needed a little bit more money, could we put more money in? And we basically just tore me apart, in a good way, and said, "Okay. We'll put more money if you put your pro rata share personally on the deal." And I was like, "Carl, I'm an associate. I just got out of business school. I have no money." And his line was, "I'll lend it to you." (laughs)
So wait, so did you take the loan?
No. You know what? He, he didn't make me do it. But it was both provocative and kind of funny, but, but it was really helpful to me because he would always tell me how things were. And it was a wake-up call to me at the time. He never sugarcoated things at all. There was a time when we were trying to sell the first software company we ever sold, VECTORsgi. And I was so nervous, "Can we get this sold? You know, can we put something on the board here?" And I'm in a meeting with the bankers who are giving us this presentation on valuation and I'm there with Scott Grable, my partner. And all the sudden, Carl walks in unexpectedly with a huge Jamba Juice, walking into the meeting. And we were so scared, "Oh no, Carl's coming in. What's, what's gonna happen?" He didn't say a word. The bankers were going through valuation methodologies. And you know how nobody uses DCF? So they had a DCF valuation and that was the off the charts price. And at the end of the meeting, Carl goes, "How did we get the DCF valuation?"
(laughs) So Grable and I like look at each other going, "Okay. How do we do that?" Anyway, but that... I'll give you another one. One time, I was with Neil Desai, who was an associate with me at Thoma Bravo, in a meeting to acquire this company. Super formal meeting, like 40 people, all these management teams. And advisors and Neil leans over to Carl and says, "Nah, I think these numbers, I, I have an issue with some of these." And Carl leans over to him in such a loud way that everybody could hear him in the meeting. He goes, "Neil, just ask him."
(laughs) Neil was so embarrassed he needed to ask the question 'cause everybody just looked. (laughs)
And just keeping on Carl. So y-you joined in '97. Y- this is your first job as an investor. Carl really gave you a chance to break into the industry. What do you think he saw when you were just, uh, you know, a young, bright-eyed, first time buy-side investor.
Man, I gotta ask him that myself 'cause he almost fired me. I do remember that at my wedding, he came over to my parents and he said, "Hey, this guy's really special." He said that and that was like, "Wow," you know? But then after he said that, he gave me so much responsibility and authority to be able to make mistakes but he would talk to me every day. He was always there if I needed him. I suspect, and I wanna ask him, that one of the things he saw in me was how much I loved the business. I would never stop thinking about the deal or the opportunity. I was just a deep student of the business like I am now. I'm still learning every day. Things change and I, I love it. I can't get enough of it.
Thoma Bravo wasn't always Thoma Bravo. It used to be called Thoma Cressey, that was the name of the firm when you first joined. What was Thoma Cressey like back then?
Carl Thoma had... being the legend that he is, he was one of the first real investors in venture capital. And early on, starting in 1980, they figured and their predecessor from T-Thoma Cressey at the time figured that they could do a lot better doing industry consolidations or roll-ups or buy and build or whatever the...
... consolidations or roll ups or buy and build or whatever the favorite acronym of that was named then they could by making venture investments in companies. So they had consolidated so many industry segments. What was awesome about Carl was when I went to interview with him in Chicago, he spent so much time with me and he sat me down and this was in 1996 and he walked me through why he thought industry consolidations were not gonna be as successful in the future, that whole strategy. He was ahead of his time in terms of that. And he basically was walking me through IPO evaluations of these companies and how these companies were getting credit for internal growth that they didn't have and the market was pricing this roll up growth just as high as they were pricing internal growth.
So we came in and after making a bunch of mistakes, Scott, myself, and then the other partners of the firm and we developed an approach that was really based on roll ups and acquiring companies but starting with the base company and software. So we borrowed so much of that history that Carl had put in place.
Where Carl was also unbelievable was that after making these great returns for so many years for so many investors, he was open-minded enough mid-stage to late-stage in his career to transform the business and be open-minded to allow us to be a software only firm.
That sounds exactly like Carl and he's always had such great vision and such great foresight and credit to you for executing on that and keeping that vision going and expanding it even farther. Focusing still early in your career, one of the, the things that really put Thoma Bravo on the map was the acquisition and subsequent exit of Prophet 21. What was the significance of that deal both on the entry and on the exit in your life and in your career?
Unbelievable. I, I probably repeat that deal to my partners like you all the time or to younger people in the firm that I don't wanna get too dated but I repeat it because of that influence. And I think when somebody gets lucky on something or something clicks for them for that first time, they can roll with it for so many years and continue to repeat it.
For the new listeners, what did Prophet 21 do?
Vertical market software selling their product to small and mid-market distributors. They ran the entire business in a digital way for small and mid-market distributors. They had about 2,000 customers when we acquired them and they were the size now of an explore deal, there were 50 million in revenues at the time, the time that we took them [inaudible 00:12:46] as a public company.
At the entry, we were able to meet Marcel Bernard, amongst many, many potential operating partners and executives and Marcel was the only executive and operating partner that the CO Chuck Boyle and the entire management team wanted to work with. And this was a team that had been running the business for about 15 years and had never been profitable and had spotty bookings performance and didn't have any experience doing out on acquisitions. On the entry what, what was unbelievable on the deal to me is that Marcel told me, "Orlando, we can work with this team. They have the following of their employees, they have the knowledge of their customers, and they want to win. Let me work with them."
We closed the deal and a board member, the key independent board member, who's very nice, called me the day of closing and said, "Who are you bringing in as your new CO and management team?" And of course the deal worked out great with existing management. So that really, it informed me that these judgements that investors, public board members, people make about executives and leaders could be dead wrong and it really allowed me to believe in something so big that Marcel would say, "If executives wanna win, if they care about numbers, and if they're open-minded, we can work with them. Let's go for it." And that unleashed us into this mission of actually proving that we didn't need to bring outside people, no matter how great they were, to many of these companies as long as we had a willing partner with us. That was a huge, huge element. And sometimes now to a fault. Because sometimes you need to part ways mutually to, to improve things. And we now have transitioned into being able to do both very thoughtfully.
On the exit, which also ties in into working with existing people and the joy of this business, 'cause it's a personal business, this is not like buying pieces of paper and selling them when you want. You have to live with these companies (laughs) until somebody else wants to buy them so you have no choice. Neither does management unless, you know, they wanna leave the company. But we work with this team and it was about three years and a quarter and we were exiting.
We had a deal where we were gonna sell the company and Chuck called me, the CEO and said, "Hey, you know, we have almost a year and a half left of performance vesting that we haven't achieved because we haven't had the chance to hit those numbers with Thoma Bravo vests on those shares." I was like, "I'm sorry, I didn't even think about that. Of course. This is the return we're making, you've, you've more than earned it. You've probably achieved those numbers now that were left for a couple years from now." And I said, "Well I appreciate that." He said, "Do you remember that dinner that we had before we did the deal where you described what would be in it for Thoma Bravo", or Thoma Cressey at the time, our process firm, "and what would be in it for management if the deal worked? You remember that meeting?" And I go, "Yeah, I vaguely do." He goes, "Well in that meeting you told me we were gonna make X if the deal worked. You know how much we're making now?" And I kinda chuckled and I go, "Yeah, I do." It was about five times what I had told him.
So when it works and you way exceed any expectations and promises also to management and to existing people that really cared about that business, that was just an awesome feeling for me.
That's awesome. And that is constantly one of the stereotypes in private equity that we have to fight is that we don't back existing management. Anything else that kind of annoys you when you walk into a meeting for the first time and you have to explain, "Actually, no, this isn't private equity anymore, this is the private equity of the old that you're thinking about"? The biggest one for me is private equity doesn't invest in growth. And when we look up and down our portfolio, our average portfolio company is probably growing north of 15% right now and so it is fun to try and reexplain away the old stereotypes of private equity to other investors or to management teams or to companies.
You're completely right. You hit on one which is, how could anybody think that we don't invest in growth when we're playing seven times to 10 times forward ARR for these companies? Do they think we're gonna make it on no growth? I mean, we do know math (laughs).
We know that these are basic, basic principles. That's okay at the beginning. I think it's a bit of a cop out for saying, "I don't wanna grow profitably. That only applies to some, not us." And over time I think if people are open-minded they can understand a higher level of operating performance while really making the right investment decisions.
I have a, a global one that is frustrating for me at times and that is when people don't get it. We try and if we execute correctly, and we don't execute right all the time, we have to understand the CEO and leadership teams, what do they care about? What's important to them? How can we incent them? How can they make a lot of money for working really hard? How can we give them the leeway to try out new things? What drives them? What are they strong at so we can do more of that instead of things that they may not be strong at?
So we have to understand them but they also have to understand that when we invest money that is not ours at the tune of 10 billion dollars in one deal and that that money comes from very conservative governmental institutions that need to create stable returns and can have no losses and no drama for their pensioners and whoever oversees them, that that is really, really serious stuff and that we're really stressed and we have to make that investment work. That this is not politics, this is not about dividing up the operating partner from the investment partner, this is not talking about each member of the team, this is not about independent board members, this is about one ownership group that deeply, deeply cares about the consistent performance of that business. And everything we do, whether we have the right opinion or the wrong one, comes from that perspective, comes from that point of view. And therefore, if people get that and if management gets that, they begin to focus on what matters which is hit your numbers and open up the discourse with us to see if we have something to say that can be helpful to you.
That's a great way to summarize what we do. I'm gonna steal that for some of my conversations that I have with a couple of our CEOs, I appreciate that. So in that last little bit you mentioned a couple things. You talked about getting a job as an associate and you also said we in private equity, we know how to do math. And so I've helped lead our associate recruiting efforts for the past few years here at Thoma Bravo and getting a job as an associate has never been harder, not only at Thoma Bravo but in private equity. And so I'm wondering if you still have what it takes to pass an associate interview. You up for it?
Oh my gosh, I'm so nervous because these kids are so advanced. Okay, I'm ready.
All right. So-
I'm, I'm ready. Do I need to change and wear a tie or something like that?
You should probably put a tie on but I think we'll give you a pass on that one.
So typically we kick off and we have a question that is a little bit on the softer side. So it's more open-ended, conversational. So question here is, you know, you're an investor, would you rather have a good business with a bad management team or a bad business with a good management team?
Andrew, I'd rather have neither.
That's the right answer! You nailed it. Aw, all right, all right. So you're one for one.
I'm gonna be disciplined when I invest and discipline-
You're one for one.
I'm gonna be disciplined when I invest and discipline is one of the key attributes of my background. If you want to hear more about that, I can give you that.
Yeah, I was hoping I was gonna get you on that one. But that is the absolute, 100% right answer is you don't do either. You get a good business with a good management team. All right. Do you have a pen and paper with you, by any chance?
Okay, I don't have a calculator.
No, you can, you cannot use a calculator.
(laughs) I don't have my HB-12C or whatever.
(laughs) Okay. We run all of our candidates through what we call a paper LBL. Do you know what that is?
I have no idea (laughs) what that is.
So basically, I'm gonna give you a couple assumptions and a couple data points about a business and you're gonna tell me what the return on the investment is, the MOM. I've heard some people call it the MOIC, the M-O-I-C, return on invested capital. We're gonna see if you can do it. And every single associate at Thoma Bravo has passed this test. So no pressure.
So you got a business. It's doing $100 million of EBITDA. Okay? And for simplicity, there's no CAPEX, it's a very easy-to-run business, no changes in working capital. So it's $100 million of EBITDA. It grows 10 percent a year. You buy it for 10 times EBITDA and you can get five turns of leverage or five times your EBITDA, which is $500 million of debt. What is your multiple of invested capital on that? And talk me through it. So let's start with the sources and uses. Okay? And sources and uses, for those that are listening, this is the first part about how we model every deal. We look at what we're buying and what we need to buy. And so we said, "Orlando, it's $100 of EBITDA, we're buying it for 10 times, so we're buying the company for $1 billion." Okay?
What else is gonna be in our uses or capital?
Oh, the uses?
That's easy. You know, you know, these like investment banker fees? If it's a take private and all these kind of capitalizing the company. Is it pro forma or not pro forma
No, this is a very clean company. It's $100 million of just straight cash flow. Okay? No CAPEX, no changes in working capital.
Okay. Those fees are gonna be a little bit of a rounding error and we're gonna make the buyer out here eat, eat a little bit of the fees. We're gonna negotiate a good working capital. So I'm gonna do away with that. So you're gonna buy it for $1 billion, $500 in debt, $500 of equity. That business at 10 percent is gonna do $150 of EBITDA in four years or something around there, compounding. And we're gonna sell it for 10 multiple? 10 times is one and a half billion. Then we probably paid down $200 of debt. I'm gonna be conservative on that. And so we have $300 of debt, $500 of equity-
At the interest rates in the prevailing market, it's actually $221, but $200 is close enough. You're, you're very close.
See? You know? So we have $300 at the time, so we're gonna net 1.2 because once again, we're gonna be creative with, with these huge investment banking fees and our partners there and, and everything else. And we're gonna have put in $500 million, so we're gonna make around 2.2, 2.3 times our money and the IRR is just that, 22%.
Boom. Well, I would like to be the first to congratulate you on getting a job offer to join the Thoma Bravo associate class of 2023. We hope you accept, but we understand this is a big decision, so please consult your family, your friends and get back to us in 24 hours.
All right, Andrew. Just let me talk to my mom.
But I think I'm good. Now here's the thing, talking about a job offer, I tell you, I would be so much more pumped today to start an associate at Thoma Bravo than I was when I started. There were no associates in San Francisco when I started, so I kind of was alone a little bit. I had my great mentor, Bill Leeback there. Then there was another associate, Jeannie Plessinger and Neil Desai, like, [inaudible 00:23:50] collaborate with, but now there's just... The gross is gonna be a lot more. The opportunity's a lot greater and you have peers with you. Now w- when I got a job offer, and I want to tell you something about Carl, I had the offer. I was going to accept it. And it was post-business school and law school, so it was for a VP, but they called me an associate 'cause they wanted to hammer me at the time. And all my friends that were going into venture capital and private equity were getting a little bit of carry in their fund.
So there was the, the meeting where I was supposed to accept the offer and that was a dinner with Bill Leeback and Carl and I got pumped for that meeting. And I said, "I'm gonna ask him for a little bit of carry." And at the meeting, I... At the dinner, I said, "Well, could I get, you know, a basis point or two, you know, to get some money?" Carl said, "Let me think about it." I pretty much got my offer withdrawn. (laughs)
So I had to beg for like a week to get it back and, and finally, I went to work at Thoma Cressey.
That's awesome. Now we do have a really special culture of associates. It's such a big pool of talent that we have now and they're all so close. It's a unique culture that you built. Well, let's keep it light. I've gathered some questions from our colleagues and some of our CEOs, and so wanted this to be a, a little bit of a Ask Orlando Anything opportunity. And so I've got some funny questions, some serious questions from people that you know very well. And so let's dive right into that. The first one I have is from Scott Crabill, fellow managing partner and probably the longest tenured employee at, at Thoma Bravo, uh, alongside yourself and Carl, right?
Okay. And so I'm gonna read this question. You're gonna say, "Yes, this is definitely from Scott Crabill." His question is, do you ever sleep?
That is definitely from Scott Crabill. You know Scott is one of my best friends. He's a legend. Scott is one of the best investors in private equity, but he's an even better person. Like in everything in my life, you know, that things with family, kids, relationships, Scott, he just is an incredible, incredible person with an incredible heart and, and very thoughtful. And that question also makes sense from Scott because he's incredibly supportive and he carries things on his shoulders as well.
When a deal's not working, he doesn't sleep and everybody needs support. So Scott always makes fun of me for my activity 'cause I'm super active and I want to tell you, Scott, I don't need a lot of sleep. What I need is five and a half, six hours, and I feel good. I feel fine. As long as I can work out a bit in the morning and have a fun, productive day being intellectually curious and everything else, I'm good.
You are the hardest working guy I know. I know you wake up and do calls with the Middle East and you stay out and have LP dinners till 11:00, 12:00 at night, so great question from Scott. Next one is from a very talented guitar player. He also happens to be a principal in the Discover Fund, George Jaber. He wants to know how you stay so positive, yet so pragmatic and realistic, especially in the face of receiving bad news.
Yeah, well, George is also super positive. Uh, right? He's a very fun, positive person and an, just an amazing colleague and young leader at our firm. Two answers to that is, you know, first, it's just work. It's just business. And I love it and nobody's gonna die. Nothing, you know, like, horribly is gonna happen to somebody's health or just all this stuff is just work. Second, if things were straight line and always pretty steady, it would be so boring. Like, we're here to solve challenges and get creative. And then third, Marcel Bernard, one of his great quotes, is, "Remember, every business problem can be solved and health is another matter."
He would always say that and we did see him, right, Andrew? Time and time again, with companies that are not a straight line, because they're run by people and humans that have issues and things happen in their families and their lives, we saw how he would empower people and turn great successes into things that were just doing okay or maybe going the wrong way. So also the optimism that seeing how it could be fixed and it can be done, as long as you have willing partners, it can just be fixed. We just need to know about it. We just need the time. Maybe it needs more capital. We can make that decision and, and away we go.
That's great that you said that. I, I have two kids now, a two-year-old and a two-month-old, and when I'm having a bad day at work and I see them, I can kind of forget about work for a little bit. Mark McClain, friend of the firm, founder, CEO of SailPoint, one of our most successful investments ever, he wants to know what your favorite book about business is, and he also wants to know why you haven't read his book about business yet. Which exists, I have a signed copy on my nightstand. Thank you, Mark.
First of all, Mark, I'm so sorry. I did not know you had written a book. (laughs) I thought you were too busy running SailPoint into like a trillion dollar company, from like a billion dollars or something like that. But now that I know, and by the way, nice job in marketing your book on this podcast.
No free ads on the podcast, by the way, Mark.
Yeah, that was sneaky. So Mark, I will read your book and I'm sorry, but I do have an excuse for it as well, which is I don't read business books. I have too much of that in my life. I spend all my time reading actually a bunch of 10ks and how companies are doing and all of our metrics and geeking out about that. And I read stuff that's closer to public policy or law and history. Like Why Nations Fail is one of my favorite books. Just different systems of government and different systems of setting yourself up and different systems of ethics, based on chance or on history. And I'm really into those things from a personal standpoint.
Great answer. Next question is from one of our partners, Tara Gadgil, she's a partner in the Flagship Fund. This is very topical because congratulations to Tara, but she's expecting a baby boy in September. And she wants to know what the most valuable thing that you've learned from being a parent, that is most applicable to being an investor.
And Andrew, you have two kids now.
... to being an investor.
And Andrew, you have two kids now, and you mentioned that before, how whenever there's an issue, you think about your kids, and if they're okay, everything is okay. For me, it was not only a really valuable lesson in investing, it really helped me become a functioning person in business. I was doing horribly at Thoma Cressi, as I alluded to before, from 1997 'til about the year 2000, where my career was gonna be, at least at Thoma Cressi, it was gonna be over.
And then I had Charlotte, who's now 21. And that day that Charlotte was born, I remember I forgot to get diapers. So I go to the Marina Safeway, which is a scene by the way. And I'm there like a dork in some aisle buying diapers, while seeing the scene and people buying stuff to go out, and, and things like that. And I promise you that, at that time, I started laughing in the aisle. I remember it like yesterday, and nothing else mattered.
I was so happy, and I came back to work. And when I was given another chance over time, I was able to relax. And I was able to actually do business in the way that kinda worked for me, with a little bit of my own style, with the values of Carl Thoma, with the values that I was being taught, but in a way that was productive, and wasn't all-consuming that was trapping me. So that was one big part in my career.
Now, from being an investor, it has taught me to let go. Nobody ever coached me to let go. Look how, at the way Thoma Bravo's run. It's not about me. It's not about any specific individual. You're one of our greatest leaders. Chip is one of our greatest leaders. Hudson, AJ, Scott, Seth... I can name, you know, our partners that are leading enormous things, and it's happened because you let go. And by being a parent, you can't control your kids.
You know, you can show them a lot of love. You can be present. You can instill your values. You can instill what you think is important and what isn't. You can open their world to opportunities, if you have the means to do that, but they're their own person, and you don't control them. And the more you let go, the better off they are.
That's a great answer. Applying that to relationship-building with our portfolio company CEOs, and with CEOs of new deals, I think is an incredibly valuable tactic. You mentioned tennis. Mike Capone, former executive at ADP, current CEO of Qlik, he says, "Rumor has it that fellow Thoma Bravo managing partner Holden Spate is a better tennis player than you. Would you care to comment on that?"
I think, I think that could be true. I actually... Holden had a better record in college, for sure, than I did, and I believe he had a better ranking in the juniors. And see, Holden has this, is a lefty. Yes, he, he is better.
And he's so tall, too. It's not fair. He gets so much leverage. It's just, it's not fair.
It really isn't. Yeah, I think Holden was a more accomplished player than I was. I just market my skills a little better. You know, Holden needs to talk about it a little bit more.
He's too humble.
He really is. So, so when Holden was early on at Thoma Bravo, we were partners, and we went to play doubles together. And he won. He and his partner won. That's the only time we've played competitively, but I remember how tight Holden was. Like, serving, he hadn't played in a long time, and he really didn't want a double-fault. And he would take forever to hit the second serve. It was so awkward. I was, like, almost laughing, but they were winning, and we lost. It's so depressing, but yes, I, Mike Capone, thanks for asking that. I, I have to give the edge to, to Holden.
One more segment here, Orlando. This is gonna be a set of rapid-fire questions, okay? I don't want you to think about the answer. I'm gonna give you two choices, and you're just gonna say what feels right.
Favorite fin meme account.
Oh, not Unstructured Capital?
Which one, in structure capital?
No, man, Liquidity.
Okay, all right, all right, all right.
Not even close, and I think Liquidity likes me, too, which is nice.
Have you met him or her before?
I have not.
Okay, well, we gotta set that up.
I understand Liquidity goes out quite a bit.
With a name like Liquidity, I feel like you have to go out all the time (laughs).
White wine or tequila?
Curls or squats?
Oh, squats, for sure./p>
Tropic Thunder or 21 Jump Street?/p>
Tropic Thunder by a mile./p>
White Lotus or Billions?/p>
Agassi or Sampras?/p>
HP12C, or Microsoft Excel?/p>
HP12C, Microsoft Excel./p>
Old-school, old-school (laughs). All right, well, this is the last one here. Free cash flow, or pro forma run rate cash-adjusted EBIDTA before capitalized software?
Oh, my gosh, that, that just ruined my day right there. Free cash flow. You know my, you just said all my pet peeves in investing, kinda just at once.
I knew the answer to that one. That's great. Orlando, that's, that's all I have for you. You wanna end it with a "let's go"?
Come on (laughs)! Hey, Andrew, that was really fun. Thanks so much.
Yeah, thank you, and thank you to our listeners as well, and we look forward to bringing you back for a season two of Behind the Deal. Thanks again to our fearless leader, the GOAT, Orlando Bravo, for taking the time to speak with me. All of our episodes of Behind the Deal from season one are up, so now's the perfect time to go back and binge them all. I am Andrew Almeda. Thank you so much for listening today.
Thoma Bravo's Behind the Deal is produced by Thoma Bravo in partnership with Pod People. I'm Orlando Bravo. Thanks for listening.
Certain statements about Thoma Bravo made by portfolio company executives are intended to illustrate Thoma Bravo's business relationship with such persons, rather than Thoma Bravo's capabilities or expertise with respect to investment advisory services. Portfolio company executives were not compensated in connection with their podcast participation, although they generally receive compensation and investment opportunities in connection with their portfolio company roles, and in certain cases, are also owners of portfolio company securities and/or investors in Thoma Bravo funds. Such compensation and investments subject podcast participants to potential conflicts of interest.
Certain statements about Thoma Bravo made by portfolio company executives are intended to illustrate Thoma Bravo's business relationship with such persons rather than Thoma Bravo's capabilities or expertise with respect to investment advisory services. Portfolio company executives were not compensated in connection with their podcast participation, although they generally receive compensation and investment opportunities in connection with their portfolio company roles, and in certain cases are also owners of portfolio company securities and/or investors in Thoma Bravo funds. Such compensation and investments subject podcast participants to potential conflicts of interest.